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I was in a little pot limit game the other night. Single blind, 25 cents, no cap on the number of raises. When this hand happened I think we were playing 11 handed. The UTG player limped, I was next with JJ and made it $1, 5 more players called (it was a loose game), the UTG player made it $8, I made it $28, the 5 callers all folded, UTG player raised $50 more (almost putting himself all in) and turned over his hand AA. I folded. (This came shortly after I’d won a very large pot by spiking 2-pair on the river with a 52.) Someone did some rabbit hunting and showed the flop that would have come — 345. Someone said, “What did you have?” I said, “A 67. I was going to call until he turned his hand over”. Everyone congratulated the player with the AA for pulling off a play that saved him from getting drawn out on. Comments?

Answer 1:

You call and you’re playing your JJ in a 7-way pot (assuming the AA wasn’t out there, which you didn’t know at the time), against the usual A-rag and K-rag hands. Is that what you wanted? I think you have to make a big raise when you did to either win the pot there or play against 1 or 2 opponents. If not, unless you flop a jack or no over cards, where do you go with the hand?

Answer 2:

Then you should read your book more carefully. Yet another case of result orientation. Could you have folded without the revealed AA? Should you (depends on who raised the 50)? Could he have gone “near all-in” without a hand that beat JJ? Did the odds compensate for you going for a n-outer? Etc. Will you fold JJ to a re-raise when you play Daniel?

Answer 3:

That’s what I was thinking when I made the re-raise. But, I think the limp-re-raise by the UTG player should have been a big warning flag for me. I did have a reason to suspect AA but I just didn’t process that information correctly is what I’m thinking. I’d played with some of these players before — but not that player. And, hadn’t played pot limit with any of them before. Before that hand I had the UTG player pegged as one of the better players at the table. His turning up his AA because he didn’t want me to call changed that assessment, but at the time he made the limp-re-raise I think I should have given more weight to the chance he had AA.

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Playing $3-$6 Omaha/8 with a half-kill to $5-$10 yesterday. A player scoops a huge pot (must be $40 and one winner to initiate the half-kill). The dealer forgets to place the 1/2 kill button in front of the player and nobody says anything. The dealer gives everyone four cards for the next hand and the scooper (under the gun – first to act) folds his cards gently (cards were clearly discernible) in front of him at almost exactly the same time an opponent says, “Hey, he can’t fold, he owes $5 — that pot was way over $40.” The dealer pushes the four cards back to the scooper and says, “That’s right, it was over $100.” The scooper says, “But, now everyone knows I can’t hold a good hand.” The floor man is called. He rules the player must fold and the house will place his $5 in the pot. The dealer takes the $5 from the tray and everyone is happy. Err, almost everyone. R. J. says, “Wait, he has to post $5 next hand, then … he shouldn’t benefit by avoiding the $5 post.” What should the floor man have ruled?

Answer 1:

With some chagrin, I’ll speak up and say, “I was that dealer”. It occurs to me now that rather than the house putting up the kill money, it would have been better to have the player post a kill on a future hand (but not one of the next two hands which would be his blind hands).

Answer 2:

Although then he would be posting it on his button and have the benefit of position. Maybe he could post it 10 hands later when under the gun again but I wouldn’t count on the dealer to remember it. Why kills are so popular in O-8 anyway, do they really add anything to the game? Dennis (I’d rather play Omaha than deal it) Cartwright.

Answer 3:

With two different color drawing tickets, names being called during hands, the typical commotion of Omaha/8, and food being served, several dealers failed to give a scooper the 1/2 kill button yesterday. The difference was in every other instance the players at the table caught the omission prior to the next hand. My question goes past the first ruling. After the floor made the ruling that the $5 would come from the tray (Dennis’ after the fact ruling is better in my opinion — although the player would gain from position behind the button instead of under the gun) what should he have ruled on whether the player “skates” on making up the $5 post? I’ll tell RGP what Pete ruled after we get some thoughts on what the correct ruling should have been. By the way, Dennis deals at Texas Station. RGP fields a lot of questions on the best places to play low limit in Vegas. I have played at T. S. the last two weekends and the Omaha/8 game is player friendly ($23.47 per hour/15 hours … and I write much better than I play). Yesterday, they spread stud, Omaha/8, HE, and draw high. Comp food (fruit, salad, and a main dish or two) is brought in at lunch and again at about 5:45 p.m. Yesterday we had Salisbury steak and barbecue beef for lunch and hot dogs and chicken wings for dinner. Not 5* cuisine, but aside from a five minute rush when the food arrives, it keeps the game together. Texas won “Best Poker Room” in the Las Vegas Review Journal poll and Robert Latch (new mgr.) is doing everything he can to make sure T. S. stays #1.

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I was playing 4-8 holdem at Canterbury last night and sat down at an insane table. Pots were being capped 5-6 ways pre-flop about 30-40% of the time. I got very few cards to play, so I mostly just sat and folded (down $55 in 7 hours), but I realized that I don’t have a very good idea of how to adjust my play. I ended up playing just high pairs and strong aces (of which I got very few). What hands should you play if you know it will be capped (4 raises) 5-6 way pre-flop? It seems like low pairs are a bad idea, as are Axs. About all I felt good playing was AA-JJ, AK-AJ, and KQ (maybe). How do people normally play in these games? Do you play hands like QJ-JT suited? KJ suited? These are hands that I like to play in passive no-foldem games, but they seem like chip burners when you have to pay 5 small bets to see the flop. The most interesting thing about this game was the reactions of the normal players. They would bitch and moan about the bad play of the maniacs, yelling at them about raising with 45 suited, and proceeded to go on major tilt. They would get into raising wars with the maniacs with nothing, and then bitch when the maniac beat them with a small pair. While I was not having the most enjoyable game (folding for 2 hrs straight is not what I look for in an evening), I was certainly not going to get upset with people who want to play poker like roulette. They paid for their chips, so they can play them however they want. This newsgroup was instrumental in teaching me how to play in low-limit loose-passive games. Now I need help with the maniacs. I await your advice.

Answer 1:

My personal opinion…..if you’re not willing to play big suited connectors, then you should find another table. Even middle suited connectors. Or any two big suited cards. I don’t like Ax in a game like this, because it sounds like our opponents are playing any ace and you’ll be outkicked. If AK,AQ, etc. doesn’t improve it’s not going to win. With that many people in the pot….somebody’s going to get some piece of the flop. Not much bluffing in a game like this. You almost have to look at it like there’s an ante of big blind x 4 to play a hand. So given that, what hands do you want to play for those stakes. If you can only name 3 or 4 hands…..then you need to find another game.

Answer 2:

One school of thought says simply wait for AA KK, QQ, or AKs. Same authors that give this advice say they realize this is a stupid way to play poker. An important question would be is post-flop play as wild as pre-flop play? I’ve seen some games where on average 7 players see every flop for one or two raises, but only 3 players see the turn card and one caller on the river. If the game is like this, where whoever hits the flop wins very few bets after the flop, it’s more of a crap shoot than a poker game, and you have to play very tight pre-flop. Big pairs (nines would be my cut-off) are what you want. AK is good, AQ is borderline, AJ is not worth it. Being suited helps only a little. AJs, KQs are borderline hands. If the table is full of true maniacs who cap it every round with even the slightest hope of winning, you can actually loosen up and add medium pairs (down to fives) and medium suited connectors (down to 45s) when you have position. You must tighten up on the flop now. It is tempting to put in 5 more small bets with 8c7c and a flop of 8h9h2c but don’t. If you make a very strong hand, don’t bother to bet/raise it until at least the turn. For the second type of game you need a much larger bankroll than normal. If I knew ahead of time a 4-8 game was that wild I would buy in for $500, and be prepared to buy for another $500 if my stack got below $200. If you can’t afford that find another game. This is a very debateable topic and I’m sure others will disagree with my advice.

Answer 3:

I played in a 3/6 game very similar to your table of maniacs this weekend. The advantage I had was that I had to railbird for about 20 minutes before a seat opened up. During that time I was thinking about how the play would be different from a loose-PASSIVE game that usually takes place at these lower limits. I was observing the hands that were played and determined that I would have to either: a) play looser and risk a bigger variance or, b) play tighter and spend a lot of time folding otherwise playable hands. I chose b. Looking a the size of the pots, I figured that I would have about the same hourly rate by playing less hands and significantly reduce my bankroll variance. To do this, however, I would need to get a fair amount of strong hands. Obviously. I threw away some pretty good hands, that I would have played in a “normal” game. Many times I was glad I did, because with that many players seeing the flop – it would hit a few of them. And, it did. I saw hands like 89s win (trip 8′s – on the river), 46o would make a straight, etc. You get the idea. I played a very tight-aggressive game and after about 7 hours came out about 15% better than I usually do against my hourly rate. I played about 60% FEWER hands. Perhaps, I got more than my share of winning hands – who knows? It was a lot harder to play, I know that. One might argue that it isn’t fun. I’d suggest that it offers an opportunity to learn how to adapt to the table conditions. Changing up your usual style is a great learning experience. I wouldn’t want a steady diet of this type of play, however, I believe I came out better for the experience.

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What are the crucial differences in how you should play limit hold’em and pot limit hold’em? Is there a general rule of thumb to remember or are the differences too numerous and too subtle?

Answer 1:

The differences are in how to think about the game. In pot limit, concepts related to implied odds, position, and pot-size manipulation are more important than in limit.

Answer 2:

You got to be tighter in Pot than limit. In cash pot limit you catch the wrong part of the flop you can be taken to the cleaners if you don’t release it.

Answer 3:

I don’t really agree with that, but it’s just my opinion, certainly not gospel. In pot limit, you want to play hands that will either lose a little or win a lot. I play PL with some very tight players, and they don’t win much. I know I see more flops in PL than limit. When the situation is right, and you can limp in with a big drawing hand, or the pot odds and implied odds from a couple of players calling a pre-flop raise justify it, you want to play hands that can flop big. If you play JT, and the flop comes Jxx, you’re in jeopardy and have to play it very carefully, even though you might have the best hand at that moment. I’d much prefer a flop like A98 rainbow. I have a big draw and the possibility of at least one ace out there to pay me off if I hit. So, maybe not as tight pre-flop, but tighter on the flop if you get a piece of it with a vulnerable hand.

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I want to make a weekend trip to Atlantic City to play some holdem. I don’t want to spend a lot of $$$ on lodging because I will be spending most of my time playing poker. Any suggestions of where to stay within a half hour of A. C. would be appreciated. I played low limit hodem (3-6, 5-10) at the Taj last year and thought the poker room was alright, but was wondering if their are any “better” places to play.

Answer 1:
There are a number of fleabag motels along route 30 and route 40, all of which are within 30 minutes of the casinos.
Answer 2:
The only other place close to the Taj is the Trop, and it is really good for the daily tournaments there every day but Saturday. I played in the $60 Limit HE tournament tonight, and sandbagged my way into 4th place. I would say play the tables at the Taj (No Smoking is a HUGE plus) and go to the Trop for the tournies…they are fun and pretty cheap.
Answer 3:
I like to stay in a Howard Johnson’s Express in West Atlantic City. It’s about 1/2 mile fr/ the Parkway and it takes me 15 minutes to get to the Taj. I can always make reservations at the last minute (even in the summer) and the rooms are in the $50-$60 range. It’s a little off the beaten track and the rooms are great and quiet. Be sure to ask for promotion deals. There’s also a Hamptons Inn and Ramada Express on the Black Horse Pike (about 10 minutes fr/ the boardwalk).

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Could someone explain what the following descriptions mean:
Holdem $50 + $10
Holdem $10 + $10, $500 guaranteed
Holdem $100 + $15
Obviously, I know the game is holdem.

Answer 1:

Normally this means $50 (in your first example) going toward the prize pool and $10 going to administrative fees (the house). The $500 guarantee means that the casino will guarantee at least $500 in the prize pool. The pool will be divided among 1-x players based on the tourney rules (many will pay the final table with the last few basically getting back their buy-in).

Answer 2:

This first dollar figure is the entry fee. The second is the optional re-buy. The $500 guaranteed means that there will be at least $500 in the prize pool.

Answer 3:

First example, 50+10. That’s $50 for the tournament pool, $10 to the house for rake. If 100 people enter, the prize pool is $5000, the house pockets $1000. Similarly with the third example. Second example is the same also, except the casino is guaranteeing a $500
prize pool. If only 32 people show up, to make a $320 prize pool, the casino adds $180 to make it $500. Re-buys would usually be written something like “$60 + $50 re-buys”.

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I don’t want to sound like one of the luck people or a non-believer, but I feel like I need help with my game. I cannot seem to beat the game at all. I have been playing for about a year and a half in Michigan at the Soaring eagle. Mostly 4-8 and 6-12 with almost no success. However, when I go to Vegas I am able to turn a little profit and I was even able to win a small tournament. I have read some books, including Sklansky’s Holdem for Advanced players but I still have this feeling that it does not go the way the book plays. Is it the limits? Would I have better success at 10-20 where it might be more true to the book? I have almost given up hope because I have much more success at Blackjack and Roulette if you can believe it. I do great in home games and I have even had success online but the soaring eagle just kills me, I get nervous driving to play. Any suggestions

Answer 1:

There are some clues in your post as to where your problems may lie. First, I think HEPFAP is the wrong book for the low limits you’re playing. I suggest Lee Jones’ Winning Low Limit Holdem, and Lou Krieger’s Holdem Excellence and More Holdem Excellence. S&M write mostly for mid to upper limit Vegas games (I know they’ll disagree, but that’s my opinion and many share it). You also compare poker to blackjack and roulette. If you approach poker as a gamble, and believe winning is like hitting your number at roulette or getting a lot of 21′s, you are not seeing poker as a game of skill and are not a favorite to win. And you have clearly psyched yourself out and have the wrong mental attitude. If you’ve all but given up hope, and even get nervous when you’re driving to play, you can’t have the mental attitude and discipline to be a winning player.

Answer 2:

Playing low limit by “the book” doesn’t always work. I play mostly low limit (4 8 & 3-6) and the information in the book, I have found, is geared toward 10-20 & up. It’s a different game at the lower limits. Play preflop is a LOT looser and many players stay to see the turn/river with what you might think is garbage. More times than you’d think, this garbage pulls the pot. You have to take that into account and expand your playable hands. Playing only group 1 & 2 cards is not going to get it done. Bluffs rarely work. Best success with bluffing is to drive players out preflop or, on the flop. If they’re there after that (especially if they call reraises) – they are going to the river with almost anything! Obviously, you’ll find a few solid players. Watch & learn. Then stay away from them, unless you have a good hand. The two or three “live ones” are the players you will make money from. Sometimes they’ll even be more than that. If so, you found a good table. I am not an expert, by any stretch of the imagination. However, I believe I am pretty good at working the low limit games. I’ve been doing fairly well for quite a few years. When I do move up to 5-10 or, 10-20, it becomes more of a challenge; in that the game is different. And adjusting is even more critical. Position (in the hand and relative) is a much bigger part of the game than many low limit players realize.

Answer 3:

Hold ‘Em For Advanced Players, as it states in the beginning, is targeted towards the middle limit games ($10-$20 and up), so a lot of the information in the book would not apply to the limits that you are currently playing. I would suggest, instead of moving up to $10-$20, reading a book targeted towards the games that you are currently playing. The book I would suggest is Winning Low Limit Hold ‘Em by Lee Jones. This book is specifically for the limits that you currently play, and, in my opinion, is a great book. Also, playing in a live game, opposed to playing on line, is a completely different animal. I know that I found myself playing a lot looser in live games than on the internet. I contribute this to the boredom factor. When playing on line, I am able to do other things (tv, read, surf the net, etc) to alleviate the boredom, where at a live game, there’s nothing to do but sit there. This both hurts and helps my game at both formats. I’m currently working on a way to combine the two so that I’m not hurting my game at all, but have not yet been successful at doing it, yet. I’m not saying that this is your problem, but you need to take a hard, honest look at your game and find the leaks, for they are there, even if you are unable to see them yourself. Hope this helps.

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